By Alison Powell, Interview, July 1997
Sarah McLachlan and Tracy Chapman take their hammers to the knotty question: Why a women’s festival?
When Lollapalooza, H.O.R.D.E., Skoal, and other summer music tours started turning into macho mosh pits. Lyrical Canadian musician Sarah McLachlan felt it was time for an alternative to the so-called alternative. Her brainchild, the Lilith Fair, which begins this month, is an all-female affair of good music and good vibes. It is not, however, a traveling girl’s ghetto. Since we live in a time when pop democracy makes it possible for both sexes to create music that is either tremendous or horrendous, gathering the best women naturally also meant netting many of the most important performers, period. The lineup so far: Sarah McLachlan, Jewel, Tracy Chapman, Fiona Apple, the Cardigans, the Indigo Girls, Suzanne Vega, Paula Cole, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Shawn Colvin, Sheryl Crow, Joan Osborne, and Emmylou Harris. Here concert organizer McLachlan talks from Vancouver with one of Lilith’s troubadours, Tracy Chapman, who is in New York City a couple of months before the fair’s opening date. Though they speak across a three-hour time difference, it feels like early morning to both of them. Interview’s Alison Powell places the wake-up call.
SARAH MCLACHLAN: Tracy! How are you doing?
TRACY CHAPMAN: Oh, pretty good.
SM: So, what’s going on for you this week?
TC: Well, I’m in New York recording, and I’ve been doing a lot of traveling lately. What about you?
SM: I’ve been in the studio working on my new record.
TC: Oh, great!
SM: We’re almost done, and I had a wedding reception—mine—to come home to this week.
TC: Congratulations! When does your record come out?
SM: If all goes well, around the fifteenth of July. And then, of course, there’s the Lilith tour. You know, I haven’t been this excited in a long time. I’m so happy you said yes to coming along.
TC: Well, it sounded like such a great idea when you mentioned it to me.
ALISON POWELL: When was that?
SM: I met Tracy for the last time at Christmas. I’m pretty shy, but I just bowled into her dressing room and said. “Hey, how ya doin’? What’re you up to this summer?”
TC: You didn’t seem shy at all.
SM: I think I kind of freaked you out. I’m sorry, I was a little over the top. I was nervous to talk to you ’cause I’m no good at selling myself. Gosh, it’s so bloody early in the morning.
TC: How early is it for you?
SM: It’s nine.
TC: That is early. It’s noon for me in New York, and even that seems early.
AP: How about this for a wake-up question: If the established tours, like Lollapalooza and H.O.R.D.E, hadn’t become so masculine in recent times, do you still think there would be a Lilith?
SM: Oh, definitely. Lilith Fair was only slightly begun for reactionary masons. I think it’s been coming for a long time. In fact, it’s odd to have to put this out as something new and different—Tracy, I think you’ll understand this. People ask, “So what do you think about this new fad of women in music?” And I think, what do you mean, fad? Have women never made music before?
AP: I think what people noticed was that there were suddenly a lot of women clustered at the top of the charts.
TC: The chart position is what makes R.
AP: Tracy, you were a part of that.
TC: Yeah. But I think I know where Sarah was going with what she was saying. Of course women throughout history have always been making music and crossing genres too, but it’s only in recent years that the press has made it seem as if these movements are moments in time when women are somehow becoming more popular or, in some cases, dominating the industry, which of course is far from the reality. But there are more opportunities out there right now for women who write their own songs and play on their own records.
SM: Yeah. If we had tried to put together a women’s music festival like this five years ago, the promoters would’ve laughed at us. Now they’re so excited about all these women—it’s nice to see that some things can turn around quite quickly. Who knows why? I guess people just had a desire to hear something different, and women were offering it.
AP: But Sarah, that was hardly still the early days of the women’s movement.
SM: Which is pretty sad.
TC: Yes, but even though I think all women owe something to the women’s movement—the right to vote, to own property, and to have control over our bodies and lives—the music made by the women who are part of this tour doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with politics. The position we are in also has a lot to do with the pace of music—a lot has happened in it.
SM: The curious thing about all this is that the idea for Lilith came from a humble idea, which was: Wow, wouldn’t it be fun to get together with a bunch of women I love and admire and have a tour? I never get to see anybody play live, so it’s really a selfish act.
TC: I was thinking that too. I haven’t seen a lot of the women who’ll be playing on the tour. It reminds me of when I did the Amnesty International shows. I’d never seen Peter Gabriel or Bruce Springsteen or Sting play live, so as much as I was a participant, I also felt like a fan, and I feel the same way about Lilith: It’s a free concert every night.
SM: Yeah, that’s the prime motivator for me. Then along came all these huge feminist undercurrents, which of course are going to exist. But like Tracy said, the important thing to focus on is the incredible diversity of music that’s happening.
AP: Do you think Lilith Fair will test how well people can set aside their views on how what’s happening onstage is related to sex?
SM: Well, women are women.
TC: You can’t completely ignore it.
SM: That’s a huge part of who we are.
TC: Right, and what we write about.
SM: That’s our perspective.
TC: And how we’re positioned in the music industry.
SM: And the world. I appreciate what you said, Tracy, about the fact that this didn’t start five or ten years ago. A lot of young women today don’t realize that eighty years ago we couldn’t vote. We’ve got it relatively easy compared to back then, so we really have to pay homage to those women and remember them in all of this too.
AP: There’s also a generation of women who didn’t go to high school at a time when it was considered rebellious to pick up a guitar. There are different role models now.
SM: I had Pat Benatar.
TC: Right, and Joan Jett, those were the rockers. And Chrissie Hynde is from Ohio, like me. There’s Heart, too, and Patti Smith and Blondie. Women were definitely out there being successful. So maybe, like you were saying, the only reason why women seem to be so strong now is the chart positions and the number of women artists being played on the radio.
SM: When we’re talking about Lilith, most interviewers ask, “Why do you think there are so many women happening now?”
TC: That’s why I would say we’re just talking about music and what people want. Audiences listen to the radio stations that play the records they like. It’s not about whether it’s a woman or a man singing. It’s just a matter of “Hey, I like that song.”
SM: Exactly. It’s not that women have completely dominated the charts. I hate to use the word, but there’s a little more “equality” now.
TC: One thing I’ve never really liked is categorizing “women’s music” or even “women’s culture.” I think there’s so much diversity in the world that even if you’re talking about people who have some commonality, a term like that can never fully describe what something or someone is. So I think in the case of Lilith Fair, the only real link is that we’re all musicians.
AP: I would guess the women on the bill are people who would hate to be lumped together just because they’re women. How have you dealt with that?
SM: I just love women. It just so happens that a lot of the songwriters and performers and musicians I like right now are women – and again, the tour was put together for selfish reasons. I never get to see anybody play live because I’m always on the road. And yeah, I think women deserve to be celebrated; I think people in general deserve to be celebrated. “I’m a humanist before I’m a feminist, or anything else” – that quote came from the first press release for Lilith, which my promotion company strongly recommended I do because they were afraid it was going to turn into this big hard-core feminist rally. That’s the last thing I want. I love men, I love people, and I don’t think this is about excluding anybody – it’s simply a celebration. We probably should have just said it was a celebration of music. But of course, you know, we are women.
TC: The other thing, and I’m not trying to speak for you, Sarah –
SM: Oh, please help!
TC: I just think you’re right. There’s nothing wrong with celebration of any kind, and certainly nothing wrong with celebrating women. I think it’s worth pointing out that often women are not celebrated in this culture. And they aren’t celebrated in the music industry. Truthfully, women are treated differently than men are, and it makes sense to bring a positive force into our representation and to be active participants in it. I mean, it’s great that you did that press release, that you had an opportunity to explain your reasons for putting the tour together.
SM: Before all the misconceptions came.
TC: Right, and I think the tour itself can do the same thing. We as women will get an opportunity to provide more information to people about who we are, and to explain and describe ourselves instead of being explained and described by other people, who often misinterpret us.
SM: Songwriting is a big part of what we give to the world. I don’t know about you, Tracy, but that too is a selfish act on my part.
TC: Oh, completely. [laughs]
SM: It’s pretty much therapy, and then once I feel good about what I’ve made, it’s a gift to everybody else – the gift of myself. I’m writing from a human perspective, but I’m writing from a woman’s perspective as well.
TC: I understand you, and to follow up on what I was talking about Just a few minutes ago, I tried to do something I thought would be beneficial not only to myself but also to the whole musical process I was involved in, and that was to create opportunities for people in my touring band and in my crew. That meant opening up the selection process not only to women but also to people of color and younger people who might not have a lot of experience but who have a lot of energy and bring a lot of passion to their work. Those are important actions to take because it’s a way to respond to a world that doesn’t always create opportunities for people like them.
Anyway, given the ticket sales for this event, it seems there’s a lot of interest in seeing all these different women together on one stage at the same place and time. That’s not to say there aren’t great men out there, or that they couldn’t be on the stage with all of us at some point in time. It’s just that this is, once again, a way to represent ourselves and to do so in a positive way.
AP: Do you expect to have a lot of men in the audience?
TC: Well, I always have men at my concerts. I mean, I get all different kinds of people, so I’m assuming it’ll be the same on this tour.
SM: I think so too. We did sort of a trial run last year of four shows, and it was the same audience I usually get: lots of men, lots of women, very varied in age and everything. And as Tracy was saying, about being able to give something back and trying to change the system from within: One of the things we want to do is showcase young artists, so there’ll be a B stage as well. The reason I’ve been successful is not because of radio stations playing my songs, but because I got out there and played and played and played live for two or three years at a time. If you’re good live, people are going to get into you and want to buy your record. So it’s a bit like getting played on the radio, only better.
AP: How will you decide who’s performing when? For example, who goes last?
SM: Well, personally, I don’t like going on last, so I hope it’s not me! Tracy, are you going on last?
TC: Am I? No!
SM: I don’t want to go on last either! I like going on second to last
TC: I like that spot as well. But Sarah, people might expect you to go on last because it’s your idea and your show.
AP: Well, at Live Aid, Bob Geldof went on like fifth.
SM: There’s only five acts in each Lilith Fair show.
TC: Right, SO Sarah can go on fifth.
AP: But that’s last.
TC: Shhh! We don’t need to say that.
SM: Oh, it’ll be great. I can’t wait. I want to get on the road right now. Tracy, take care, and we’ll see you in a couple of months. Don’t work too hard.
TC: You too. Bye!
To learn more about Tracy Chapman’s participation in the 1997 Lilith Fair tour, read the newsletter dedicated to it.
Lilith Fair at the Shoreline Amphitheater…,
– By Michelle Goldberg, Salon.com, July 11, 1997
A large, homely girl stood in the small crowd that surrounded poet-singer Kinnie Starr after her Lilith Fair performance Tuesday night, clutching a T-shirt with a picture of a ’50s-style blond bombshell and the words, “Beauty is Not Power,” and “Most Politicians Still Think a Woman Should Be Seen and Not Heard.” Suzanne Vega was starting on the main stage of the Shoreline Amphitheater just south of San Francisco, and most of the crowd was rushing to catch the beginning of her set. But the women who surrounded Starr didn’t move. Instead, they gave her gifts — one girl pressed a nectarine into Starr’s palm, promising it was organic. When the big girl’s turn came, she was beaming. “I just love this shirt,” she said, handing it to Starr to sign. “Especially the part that says, ‘Beauty is Not Power.’”
The show on the main stage, where Lilith Fair founder Sarah McLachlan performed along with Vega, Paula Cole, Jewel and Tracy Chapman, wasn’t much different from any big-ticket festival — everyone played abbreviated sets, and the cumulative effect was at times numbing and exhausting. But Lilith felt different from other festivals. While the difference was subtle — there was no touchy-feely granola vibe like at the Michigan Womyn’s Festival — the mood was so easy and comfortable that it occurred to me: this is probably how boys feel at shows all the time.
No one was putting on makeup in the women’s bathrooms (one of which, judging from the long row of urinals, had been converted from a men’s bathroom for the occasion). No one was trying to save their hair from the heat, probably because there were no roving gangs of hacky-sac playing thugs to impress. I was looking forward to making my way to the front of the crowd without being shoved aside by 6-foot punks, crushed by hairy ogres and slammed in the face by army boots on flailing crowd surfers. But unfortunately, the whole front of the amphitheater was reserved seating — disappointing, especially since half the joy of seeing Sarah McLachlan, the tour’s founder and headliner, is being up front to watch the worshipful tears in the eyes of her fans.
“Concerts are sometimes so aggressive,” said Yesenia Sanchez, a 24-year-old with long black hair who was sitting cross-legged on the lawn with her friend Tina. “Here there’s a different energy. The music is much more thoughtful, and it connects with people on a deeper level.”
Indeed, most of the artists were thrilled to be playing to so many girls. “I finally get to play for my peers, all the girls who can’t get into the bars where I usually play” said 19-year-old singer Lauren Hoffman. “Usually I go into the bar and it’s a five-boy band, and then me, and then another five-boy band.” Later, Hoffman seemed delighted to be signing autographs for fans her own age. The way her face lit up, it looked like she was the one meeting her idol.
The Lilith Fair is a world away from the boys-to-the-back anger of the riot grrrls, and Sarah McLachlan actually expressed disappointment that more men weren’t showing up. “I’m up on stage and I started counting,” she said. “It’s like four women, then one guy, then five more women.” In fact, McLachlan said, next year there will be men performing in the Lilith Fair. “This year a point needed to be made. There’s almost a reverse sexism against a lot of guys right now. These introspective singer-songwriter men are being marginalized like we were a few years ago.” She’s even charitable to the promoters who booked the cock-rock Lollapalooza lineup. “Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the women didn’t want to do it. Personally, if I saw Metallica on a bill, I’d say no.”
Not that there wasn’t any righteous indignation fueling the Lilith Fair. The idea for an all women mega-tour was born in 1995, when McLachlan toured with Paula Cole and some promoters balked at having two women on the same bill. “What?” asked McLachlan, “Are you afraid people won’t come?” Now McLachlan’s put 53 female artists on the same bill (in a rotating line-up that changes by region) and all of the shows so far have sold out. McLachlan hopes it will prove, once and for all, that women rockers aren’t just a trend, that “this is way too huge to be just a fad.”
Carla DeSantis, who as editor and publisher of ROCKRGRL magazine is following the fair across the country, said she’s tired of the way the media constantly recycles the story about the “trend” of female artists. “I came through the ranks as a professional musician,” said DeSantis. “I started the magazine because I had taken a break to get married and have a child, and I couldn’t believe that when I came back people were still making a big deal about girls playing music!
“I think this show proves the point I’ve been trying to make all along,” DeSantis said. “Obviously, people aren’t here to see a freak show. They’re here to see talented entertainers. This summer there’s more of a demand for Lilith than for any other festival.”
But has the demand come at the price of making the festival too mainstream and non-threatening? After all, these angel-faced folk singers are hardly subversive. “I’ve heard criticism from some in the media that it’s not diverse enough,” DeSantis said, “that Sarah could have gotten Sleater-Kinney or Seven Year Bitch. But these artists really reflect [McLachlan’s] taste and her audience.”
As tame as the acts on the main stage were, there was a coherence to the show that many music festivals lack. Lollapalooza, which keeps coming up whenever anyone starts talking about Lilith, can be so stylistically scattered that the fans split as soon as “their” band stops playing. But most of the artists on the Lilith tour share an audience. The women sitting around me seemed to know the words to all of the songs. When Tracy Chapman sang “Fast Car,” the whole audience was enthralled, and their unified attention seemed to make the song even more soulful and tragic.
That’s not to say that some of the artists on the main stage weren’t awful. Paula Cole was absurd singing her horrible hit, “Where Have All the Cowboys Gone,” with its dead-earnest lines, “I will do the laundry/If you pay all the bills.” It sounded especially ridiculous given the crowd around me — on one side was a husky bald dyke with rainbow rings and a “Girls Kick Ass” T-shirt, and on the other was a tall, pretty woman whose shirt read, “Everything I Know I Learned From My Girlfriend.”
Similarly, while Jewel’s stage patter was disarming, her song “Pieces of You,” is just so shockingly bad that it overshadows all her humble appeal. “I never thought I’d sell this many records,” she said, thanking her fans. “I really love what I do for a living and I’m really glad I don’t have to waitress anymore.” The crowd, many of whom were surely waitresses themselves, cheered wildly. Her first few songs were twangy and effervescent. But then she started singing “Pieces of You,” an embarrassingly banal song about discrimination. Her face was magnified on the screen above the stage, her doe eyes shut sensitively as she sang the worst lines I’ve ever heard in any song ever: “faaagooottt, faaaaaagooot” and “Ohhh Jeeeewwww, Ohhhh Jeeewwww.”
It was on the tiny third stage — a black box barely big enough for a singer, drummer and guitarist — that Kinnie Starr, the true gem of the festival, burned through her way-too-short set. There’s nothing more awful than bad poetry, which is why it takes someone like Starr to demonstrate how hypnotically musical spoken-word can be. “Lilith was banned from the garden of man, but she’s back and in our face, wings stretched far as she can,” Starr chanted in beatniky rhythm. The one song she did sing, before the start of Vega’s set cut her short, was “Grandma’s Bicycle,” and it was the most captivating of any performance. “I am through with this whole damn world and its overwhelming bad taste,” went the refrain, over and over in a smoky monotone.
“Most festivals are all men,” said Starr, who has only been performing for a year and a half. “I’ve tried to get into so many of them and have been turned down.” During her set, she pointed to two little girls in the audience and asked, “Do you two play guitar? Why not? Do you want to play my guitar?” They waited with their mother to meet her when she was finished, and Starr’s friend gave them stickers. Starr said she’s been thinking about being a role model a lot lately. “I never had that — I mean, besides Janis Joplin. This is really, really good for all the little girls. I hope all the little girls go home and beg their moms for guitars.”
July 11, 1997
